Today my guest is Madeleine Mozley, mother, freelance editor AND author of dystopian sic-fi. Despite being incredibly busy, she is coming out with her second book this month, Blood for Blood. We talk about the pressure of writing quickly in the Indie Author world, science fiction and much more.
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TRANSCRIPTION STARTS HERE:
Kat
Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode 148 of Pencils and Lipstick. I’m Kat Caldwell. Today it is, I think it’s September 9. Yes, because I’m late in recording this. It is a beautiful Friday, early afternoon. We have some sunshine today, it’s wonderful. And it’s September. It is moving fully into September. And this is the time when most of you, no matter where you live, most likely kids are in school, and maybe you have a little bit more of your day organized, let’s say, whether you’re working full time, halftime, whether you’ve decided to become a full time writer. Most likely, if everyone else’s day around you is more organized, your day is as well. So this is the truth for my life at the moment, and in fact, I’m getting a lot more writing done, although, as I constantly say, I would like to be more organized with it. But, you know, here we go. We are stepping back into September 2022, and I am still struggling with the same old things.
Kat
So, I have already organized, outlined-ish, organized-ish, the one half of the historical romance, Dowser’s part, and I am filling in Carmen’s part. And I don’t mean that I’m writing it. I’m writing out the sort of main scene outlines, basically, and really nailing down what they’re wanting at the beginning and what they want in the middle. And then I know how it ends. It’s a romance. It’s historical romance, but romances always end on a happily ever after. HEA right? If you ever see that hashtag with books, it’s usually what that means. So I’m working that out. I don’t know why. I seem to be focusing a lot more on Dowser. He is my favorite character and Stepping Across the Desert. So that might be why. There you go. Answering my own questions. But I’m also focusing on Carmen. I guess maybe Douser is coming to me easier than Carmen, but I have figured out one very important thing, and I won’t tell you what that is, but one important thing for the beginning of the book. And now things are really moving as far as outside the ring. I am continuing to figure that out. And the other day, I took a walk with no music and no podcast and actually ended up writing in my notes on my phone. About 500 words as an idea came to me, and that is both dangerous if you’re walking, depending on where you’re walking. Awesome. I love having a phone nearby, so that I can sort of do that. I clearly slow my pace, as I do that. This is a lot easier if you’re like on an elliptical or treadmill, you might look a little crazy in the gym, like typing ferociously on that tiny little screen. But, I needed to get it out because it was like coming to me as I was cooking. And then I thought, okay, I tried to dictate it out and it didn’t work. I don’t know, y’all, if you know how to dictate in a way that doesn’t feel silly. And, I don’t know, I think with me, like my brain ends up going in a whole different direction. It doesn’t know what it’s doing, so I ended up typing it, anyway. The thing is, the whole point of this, is that things are going well. I’m actually quite excited about how well they are going. Also, when this podcast drops, I start the courses. Now, if you are just now hearing this and you are looking for a course, in order to really get your book done, let’s see what we’re doing, in the story development course. If you are a writer who has written one novel already, sort of have that idea of what it takes to get a novel done, or you are almost done with a novel. This is probably the course for you. We are starting on Monday, today, basically when this drops. But you can always join in because everything is going to be recorded. We are going to really get into the key scenes and the beats to your genre. And we’re going to write up scene cards and we’re going to evaluate our scenes. We’re going to go into writing authentic dialogue, presenting book blurbs, getting into what it takes to get editing done, what editing means. Because it doesn’t necessarily mean what a lot of writers think it means. So that starts Monday. And again, if you are looking for a course and you really want to get into it. Monday the 12th, today the 12th, is more like an intro and giving a little homework so you won’t have missed too much. Plus, you would have the recording. And for beginners, that is starting on Tuesday. So, you can still get into that. And we are going to really get into how to how to think about your book, how to structure the book, going through kind of how I’m plotting things out. It doesn’t mean, of course, that things won’t change as my novel, Outside the Ring, has completely changed, but it helps you structure things, the tools that you might need, the ways to get into a writing habit, learning to get into your characters, learning dialogue, basics, all these things. It’s just kind of the same thing, just on a more, beginner level, I guess. That will be on Tuesdays. And again, Tuesday is sort of the welcoming day. And so if you are a little late and come in the next week, you will have the recording and you won’t have missed too much. So I mentioned something about editing, and it might not be what you think it is. Maybe you think it is exactly what it is. So I was talking to a writer the other day about how to look at her scenes. Now, you can take your entire manuscript and you can look at it, and you can start dotting the I’s and crossing the T’s. But, the more I read about editing and storytelling, and especially the relationships that writers, about 100 years ago, had with their editors, the more I realize we’ve lost this art of editing. And so I’ve really come back to seeing editing, and as I go back and sort of fix, the thing that I’m adding to Outside the Ring is requiring a fix, like an overall fix in the novel. So I have to go scene by scene and see where to put the threads, like taking the needle and sort of threading them together and taking this new thread and making sure it’s going through each of the scenes in order to stitch it up properly at the end. Great metaphor, guys. So, I’m looking at the scenes in a really micro way and then kind of pulling out and looking macro. I was talking to her about that, and she asked me, “what I don’t understand? What are you looking for in these scenes? I know that I need them to meet and I need them to do this certain thing, and I need to tell the reader who he is or who she is.” And I say, “yeah, that’s all great, but there are scenes, especially when you’re a new writer, in which you might like it or you think it’s showing something great, and it’s not that it’s not well written, but it’s not actually needed for the story.” And we had to get into that deeper. So, I thought I would share with you the three main things that I’ve started to look for in a scene. Depending on how you organize your book, this might be smaller than a chapter. So a scene is in one place. If the character changes a scene, the scene has changed. And so we’re going to then look at each scene as the place in which they are. And once they move that place, we’re starting a new scene. Now, the life of this character continues through, and so you’re obviously taking threads from one scene and into another, as you should, like a French braid, right? I’m really in the hair thing today. But, what I’m talking about in a scene is this really, smaller portion, and it might not just be a chapter. So the first thing I look for is emotional change. And this I really learned from C.S. Lakin. I hadn’t really heard it before. Maybe I just hadn’t put it together. But she has a great course on the ten key scenes that your novel needs. And she’s really good at scenes. I took a mini-Mastermind with her. And she’s just amazing at sort of being able to quickly pick out the things in a scene that are great and things that are not so great and things you should toss. And, you know, she’s as brutal as a good editor should be. So, emotional change, a main character in each scene should change in each scene, at least subtly. So their emotions should be moving. And if they’re not moving, that’s a huge red flag. You know, when you read that scene that you’ve written, that you like how it’s written, but, it sort of leaves you in this state of just calm hover. You have that gut instinct that, there’s something wrong, like there isn’t enough tension. There’s nothing really there. It’s beautifully written, yes, great, but there’s something wrong with it. There’s something not great about it. And, the problem, most likely, I’m thinking especially a very specific scene in Coffee Sayings that I ended up cutting when they are having dinner, and she goes in frustrated, and she leaves frustrated. And so, I liked the way that I was, sort of, showing the characters, and I had all these nuances, and describing the area, and she’s not from this richer mentality, and so she’s struggling with that, as well. I could go on and on, and I really like the scene, but when I looked at it, it’s like there’s something wrong with it. The editor who edited that book, said, you don’t need the scene. I got a little offended, as we usually do, and I now know and now understand. I sort of have words, I guess, to go to it. The problem that I knew in my gut, thankfully, I cut the scene, was that the emotion never changed. He went in confused, was left in a state of confusion. She went in frustrated and mad, left in a state of frustration, and anger. And so, they didn’t change at all. So it’s like you’re just reiterating what happened in the last thing with just a bigger scene, and it’s just not needed. This is going to slow down your pacing. This is where some readers will put the book down and not pick it back up, and they won’t know exactly why, right? Because, again, it’s not saying that your writing is bad. They won’t really know why they’ve lost their interest. So I sort of give this example. You take your scene, you sort of cut it. Again, it could be shorter than a chapter. And you look at where they are in the beginning and why, where they are in the middle and why, and their emotional state, and then where they are at the end and why. And if they’re the same, you got to ask yourself like, then what’s the point of having the scene? And if the scene is needed, then you need to change the tension and you need to up the ante and all those wonderful cliches. So, this is kind of like when the detective, or the police person, goes in and gets there, is going to order their lunch, and they’re just thinking about lunch and about life, or their boss or their partner, or whatever, and they’re just sort of in their world, right? Life is okay. Nothing big going on. And then they get up to the counter, and they see that the butcher is on the floor with a knife in their back. And then they go into police mode, and who could have done this? And I will find you. So they’ve gone, even that slight subtle shift on from okay, this is life, no big deal, what am I going to eat for a sandwich? To the chase is afoot, sort of thing. Even that subtle, that is what’s needed. That’s what brings us into the story, right? So go through your scenes and mark the beginning, middle, and end, and then ask yourself, if there isn’t a change, how can you change it? Or how if the scene is necessary? Another big thing that I see, and I don’t do this so much, but I check for these when I’m looking over manuscripts of other writers is point of view shifts. I used to do this a lot because some literary stories do this, but they do it purposely, not accidentally. But your point of view shift in each scene. Each scene typically, until you are really good at your craft and you are ready to defend your decisions, do not do this accidentally. Each scene should be told from the point of view of one person. If you want to tell the same thing from the point of view of many people, there needs to be multiple scenes, within one scene, you cannot hop. Some people call it head hopping from point of view to point of view to point of view. Now, interestingly enough, many European books do this. So, there are other ways of thinking. But, as an American reader, I will say, and I read in three languages and I’ve seen this mostly published at least in the Spanish and French, they do head hop. And it is very jarring when they do it. I can then figure, okay, let it go. And this is how things are going to go. But, it is a little bit jarring. And so, the whole point of sticking with one point of view is so that you don’t jar the reader out of that sort of reading, reverie, that dream-like state of them imagining everything. Because, when you had hop and it suddenly a statement comes from another point of view, it confuses the reader. And they usually have to go back a few lines and reread it, in order to understand who’s talking now, right? I’m sure that you can all think of a book or a time in which you had to step back and say, wait a minute. Who’s talking now? And you don’t want that. You don’t want to take the reader out of that reading reverie, right? So you need to take your scene, highlight from whose point of view it is, and then take your highlighter and see if you start it from somebody else’s point of view, right? So, if the character comes in, and they’re bringing back a book to the library. And they’re talking about the library, and how it smells like old books, and how they love the library and all this. And they leave the library excited for their new book. And then the next line is, Steve hated his job at the library, but, he sure loved it when so-and-so came in every Thursday to get her books. That’s a head hopping, that needs to have some sort of scene break, if you want him to be talking about his favorite part of Thursday. Okay, so then, we take the scene after we do that. And this is just three quick things, or other things, to look for. But, then, the main other thing I look for is forward movement. This is whether the scene is necessary. So, everything should be forcing the character to change, or forcing the plot in a direction that will lead to forcing the character to change. Do you see what the theme is here? Change, right? So, each story needs certain things to happen so that the protagonist develops as their human self, right? They’re solving a problem. Many, many stories are solving sort of an inner human problem, maturing, learning, becoming less of a jerk, becoming more loving, learning what love is, you know, growing up, all these sort of things. So stories where the protagonist never changes end up being flat and boring. So if you’ve gotten feedback that the scene is flat, it’s probably because nothing is changing, not with the character and not with the plot. So as exciting as your plot may be, maybe you plotted a lot and you have this very exciting, aliens and ships and guns and all these things happening and everything’s so exciting. Or as beautiful as your settings are. As beautifully as you’re writing this town, or wherever the protagonist is. If that beautiful setting or that very exciting plot are not forcing the character into this corner in which they are going to be faced with a decision. And they will have to make a decision that will then lead them to the next scene. You might need that scene or it might need to be rewritten. All right, so this is also having to do with pacing and books that go on and on and on. It’s because they have too many scenes in which nothing happens, not in the plot and not with the characters. So you can go back and highlight with a different highlighter what is finding the difficulty for the character, the difficulty that they are facing, and then highlight in a different color their reaction to that difficulty, because they have to have a reaction, right? And you can have a scene in which the difficulty presents itself and their reaction is to purposely blind themselves to it. As long as that decision is going to force them into another scene, that will eventually force them to actually make a real decision, right, and take the blinders off. So, these are the main three things that I look for right now in my scenes. Of course, these are just three of the things. We also have to look for grammar and we have to look at different things. I’m looking at my notes now, and the auto correct really messed some words up there, that’s why I paused. But these three things as we’re looking through the scenes. This is really going to give you a sort of micro view of your scenes and then being able to pull out and see the macro view arc of the novel and making sure that you are taking out the scenes that aren’t doing anything or changing them so that they do something. So that your character does something. So that your point of view is in shifting and so that your scenes that you have are necessary. And this is part of the editing process. This will help you learn to delete things. You have fewer darlings in which you just hold on to them because you just love the scene. Again, I had another scene in Stepping Across the Desert where they’re in the library, and it’s very angsty. He’s going to show her that he loves her. He just can’t stand it anymore and just loved that scene. I loved writing it. I loved reading it. I loved having it. And it basically was just not getting them anywhere, so I had to delete it. So this sort of, when you take scene by scene, it helps give you the courage to delete them or end up changing them, right? So that’s my little tip for you today. We are going to get into an interview right after we talk about this week’s sponsor.
Kat
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Kat
Some people move through this world feeling more like observers than participants. They can be found lying on their backs in the grass, looking up at the sky while people walk all around them. When that same sky starts to fall, they’ll be the ones we follow because they’ve seen this in their daydream. They are the outliers, and they’re who Madeleine writes for. When Madeleine’s not writing, you might find her sipping whisky as she watches the sky over the Sandia Mountains turn pink, probably with her German shepherd husky girl by her side.
Kat
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. Today I have with me Madeleine Mozley. Hello, Madeleine. How are you doing?
Madeleine
I’m doing well. How are you, Kat?
Kat
Good, and now that I say Mozley, is it a long O?
Madeleine
Mozley. Yes. You got it. You got it.
Kat
I constantly have questions about last names.
Madeleine
I have a funny name. It’s okay.
Kat
Because there’s no extra E. Yes, we can give Mozley. Well, this is your second time on the show, but it’s been a while. You were one of my first participants of my first year when we were a baby podcast. So would you introduce yourself to people in case they are new listeners?
Madeleine
Absolutely, yeah. My name is Madeleine Mozley, and I’m a writer and an editor. I’ve been a professional editor for over a decade. At this point, I lose count. And, yeah, I’ve been writing for a lot longer than that, since I was a kid. But back in 2020, I finally decided to go ahead and release my debut novel, which is First Carrier, it’s a post-apocalyptic Sci-Fi novel. And, yeah, still writing, still editing, doing all that good stuff.
Kat
How was it to release a post-apocalyptic novel in the middle of COVID.
Madeleine
And the first novel?
Kat
And a first novel.
Madeleine
Challenging, yeah, it was a learning curve, for sure. Thankfully, I did a lot of research on book launches, and hopefully, I think I did my homework enough to not totally fall on my face. But it was definitely a learning experience and I took a lot from it. And overall, I guess I had my expectations pretty low. But it went well. Launching in a pandemic for a relatively dark themed book was, well, okay, I guess I’m doing this.
Kat
This is life, right? Well, it had nothing to do with a virus, which is good. I was listening to another person, of course, I can’t remember what the author was, but he had written it years before and it came out and it was about a virus.
Madeleine
Finally his books coming out. Oh my gosh!
Kat
And he’s like this is not good. And interestingly enough, it sold really well for a while and then it just petered out almost like everyone’s like, don’t use the word virus around me.
Madeleine
They’re over it.
Kat
Yes, these are the things we can’t control as artists, right?
Madeleine
True enough.
Kat
So you are coming out with another book. It’s a sequel.
Madeleine
Yes, it’s the second book in the series, so following First Carrier.
Kat
Okay, so it is science fiction. Is that true? More than fantasy. What is the difference between this?
Madeleine
Well, I mean, science fiction and fantasy both fall under this great umbrella of speculative fiction and the way that I like to think of it as they both ask, what if? But they kind of ask it in different ways. And science fiction often warns or tries to warn people about mistakes we might be making now or could be making in the near future that would cause some problems down the line. So that’s part of why post-apocalyptic falls under that subcategory of science fiction.
Kat
Okay, so how much of your book do you use science? Do you get to make it up because it is set so much more in the future? Or do you like to add in things that are like speculative science at the moment?
Madeleine
A little of both. I would say that for my apocalypse scenario that happened before the events in this book, I really have tried to do my homework and talk to some experts about could this happen? Plausibility. I’m not saying it’s going to, and I’m not saying that it’s even highly likely, but could it? And I have some expert friends who are a lot smarter than I am, but have said, yes, that probably could happen, or this definitely could. A lot of it is based on current science that we have or extrapolating how that science probably will advance down the line, but some of it is a little more fantasy. Science fiction is fiction, right? At the end of the day, it’s based on some sort of real science, but at the same time there is some freedom with it. So I would say plausibility is important to me, but it is, at the end of the day, entertainment.
Kat
Right, entertainment. And yours is set in the sense of like, the earth has gotten way too hot. Let me see, I read this two years ago. So it has created conditions that really, really challenge humanity, basically. Right. And it has reduced the population, correct.
Madeleine
Correct. Yeah. So the events that happened are kind of a mystery at this point in the series. It’s been fun writing the second book because I get to continue to show glimpses of what happened that led to the world really getting reshaped this way. And there was a series of events, I think any time in a book that’s post-apocalyptic, where it’s one big thing that happened, boom! And everything was different, isn’t quite as believable to me. I think that apocalypses happens in stages. So I think it might start small. Right. And then another thing happens, and another thing happens, and then it becomes this compounding sort of domino effect. And that’s what happened in my fictional world. But the world that is left over. Yeah. There’s big climate extremes. It’s either going to be really, really hot and you’ll see in the sequel that it can also get pretty cold. And it’s set in my home state of New Mexico, which I’m very familiar with in general, both the geography and the weather. And because we’re in a high desert, we really do have these extremes. We have really hot summers, and we can have really cold winters. So what’s the extreme of that, if you take that to its farthest point, has been really fun to explore and it makes a challenging environment for your characters to survive.
Kat
Yeah. So you already know as a writer what happened in the world. Right. So, right when we first started reading the first book, First Carrier, we’re already in that post-apocalyptic world, and we’re following the characters there. So how did you develop this as a writer? Did you know everything? Like, did you sort of map out what would have happened before because you knew you were going to add it in later or what was your process for knowing all that?
Madeleine
It’s a good question. I mean, the basic components of it I definitely had once I had established, I figured out, oh, this is the story I’m writing. Now, let’s really think about it seriously, because it started more or less with a writing exercise that books can do, and ended up spinning into more. So once I reached a certain point in that first book, I decided, all right, I need to stop for a minute and really think about what’s the world building going to be, and what’s the history of this place.
Kat
You had already started writing. You already had the characters knowing where these guys were going. But you realize for a series, you need to know, like, have more of a foundation, I guess.
Madeleine
Absolutely. Have more of a foundation. And then as the series continues, you do get to make that deeper. Right. But it gets a little more complicated. Of course, you have to keep track of your details and not confuse things. And what did I oh, no, I made a horrible mistake. I’ve got epic giant rolls of butcher paper with complicated multicolored timelines on it, like a serial killer on my wall.
Kat
Because especially, in order to make these references back, you have to know when they sort of happened. Right. I’m sure you can come up with a character’s name on the fly that’s no longer around, but you would then have to reference that person.
Madeleine
Absolutely, yeah. And what color was their hair? And very specific dates. So my history of the world goes back hundreds of years, so you don’t have to get too specific for some bits of that time. But the big dates are important, and knowing what happened in those kind of chunks of time is really important, too.
Kat
Right. Because as a writer, it can take us weeks to months to years to write a book. But a reader can read a book within a few hours, and they’ll have that memory. Right. Oh, you said 100 years, but wait, now you said 30.
Madeleine
Yes.
Kat
So I like your idea of stopping when you were in the middle of the first book, because like you said, a lot of times, we start writing a book or a story, and then it becomes more than what we planned on it being. But if you finish a full book, like, I finished my first book, and now I’m deciding to go back to write a sequel, I’m really constrained by what happened in the first week.
Madeleine
Yes. You kind of pinned yourself in a corner.
Kat
So you are very smart to stop and decide, okay, at least some of this. But I’m always curious about these long series because as I watch Harry Potter with my kids, I’m like, I don’t think she knew that then, though.
Madeleine
I’ve spotted some in Harry Potter, too, that I’m like, but wait, wait a minute here.
Kat
And I think it’s just one of those things of like, okay, maybe she didn’t plan on having an eight book series, and sure, you get fans who will forgive you, but it’s fun to look at it as a writer.
Madeleine
Nobody’s perfect, right?
Kat
Even J. K. Rowling.
Madeleine
Even J. K. Rowling.
Kat
So as you’re writing the second book, did you start writing this before you came out with First Carrier, or did you wait for one project at a time?
Madeleine
What happened when I finished that first really big draft of First Carrier and you’re exhausted, right, after writing this book. The story was still coming to me pretty smoothly. So I think I wrote about 50 pages of this sequel right off the bat. And then, once I started to get more into publishing side of things, the First Carrier kind of took my attention away from that sequel. And then when I released First Carrier in 2020, and then I spent the last year and a half, I guess, really finishing out that second book. And it’s taken a while because life is crazy sometimes.
Kat
And we lived through a pandemic.
Madeleine
Yes, and stuff.
Kat
Because you’re a mom as well. You also edit like you’re continuing to edit. Do you guys still have the magazine that you do?
Madeleine
We don’t do the magazine, but we converted it to a full time editing business. So, yeah, we all have different clients.
Kat
So working is not lowered?
Madeleine
Not really. And as the kids get a little older, a little more independent, that can help. But, yeah, it’s a struggle sometimes for sure, to keep up.
Kat
Yes. Because you and I are both self-published, and we’ve sort of been in that space. You’ve been editing for a while. You’ve been writing for a while. I feel like our writing journeys are a little bit parallel. And so we were talking before about there’s this thing in the indie world. What is it? Like, 20 books to being your first million? What is that catchphrase that they do.
Madeleine
Something that’s outrageous for me to think about.
Kat
Yeah. Tick the boxes. I’m so far away, it’s not even funny. There’s the rapid releasing rate of people releasing a book a month. And I’ve talked to some people. Some people are just really prolific. Maybe we could say I would say maybe science fiction. There’s a lot more detail to it than some other books, possibly romance, where you can just sort of make up a lot on the fly for day-to-day life. There’s so much research to do. But, how do you navigate this world, this indie world, in which people are like, come out with your next book now, yesterday, two years ago.
Madeleine
I am still learning for sure at the beginning of that journey of understanding. But I think that for me, I’ve just had to keep my expectations realistic, which is hard. Like you say, we’re in an industry, when you’re an indie author that the more books you have, the more likely you are to be successful and blah, blah, blah, and speed. I mean, I’d love to be able to put out a book, a quarter, like four books a year. That would be amazing. But right now, with life circumstances, I’m lucky to get one out this year, to be honest. It’s been two years, almost, since my last release. And, like, to what you had said about science fiction, and even fantasy, and these genres that require a lot of in depth world building. And those genres, when people are reading them, they expect, and they want, usually a pretty high word count. So you’re not pumping out a 60,000 70,000-word novel. That’s romance. That might not require as much research or world building. So it does take longer. And I’m also not the fastest writer. I’m just not, especially when you grab, like, your time to write as a mom sometimes. I don’t know about you but for me it’s 11:00 P.M. To 01:00. A.M.
Kat
Yes.
Madeleine
That’s not when I do my best thinking. What time I have. So I don’t know if I have any advice, but my advice would be to do the best that you can. As far as setting expectations for yourself, I think it’s important that you don’t set them so high that it robs you of the joy of what you’re doing.
Kat
That’s a good point.
Madeleine
You really need to keep that in there. And if it’s not there, then why are you doing it? And maybe someday we’ll all be able to put out a book a month. What was that? That was a crazy number.
Kat
It’s insane. And you do have to look at different people’s lives and how they write and what they’re willing to do and how fast they can write. I’m one of those writers that tends to start writing in order to really figure out what I want to write about. I can’t outline until I’ve really written probably 40,000 words, which seems like a lot, and a lot of those aren’t really used later on, so it can be frustrating. But how do you do that? Do you outline or has it changed from First Carrier to Blood for Blood?
Madeleine
I think it does vary a little from project to project, and maybe even necessarily for me, it can vary from stage to stage of that project. We talked about the first book, how I had to stop and kind of do things more intentionally and do a little bit of mapping. But sometimes you do, you’re feeling out the story, right, to see where is the story and what is worth keeping? And there are phases of that for me, too. I know some people are we call them mappers, and then some people are pantsers, by the seat of their pants. So I’d say I do a little bit of both, but I’m always going to map at some point, for sure. I have to definitely go in and map whether that’s with pen and paper, or there’s a really cool tool called plotter, that I’m starting to discover that is really neat. You can keep kind of your Writing Bible there, for your project with all your details and timelines and stuff. So there is a mapping phase, for sure, but I wouldn’t say that it’s super consistent, even per project.
Madeleine
I think it can vary. If I realize I’m lost in the weeds, then, okay, now’s the time to take a step back because this is pointless. I lost.
Kat
Just keep writing words that you know you’re going to cut. Yeah. I’ve really started to look into other people’s way of doing things and just other, I guess, storytelling theories because I don’t think that everyone has the one answer that will help all of us. The one thing that I’m looking into is, scene and scene development, and what I am doing with this one is going back. I’ll read about ten chapters, and then I’ll go back, and it’s honestly not my favorite because I really like the ego side of my brain. It’s like, it’s fine, just keep writing. I like my book, keep writing. But I’m going back and I’m mapping out the scene, like what happens, how things change, where they are, where they’re going and how it transitions. To really sort of have that, more editor eye, I guess, on the book, because I don’t have experience being an editor. So how do you get that editor eye on your own stuff? Because I can imagine it’s not easy. Maybe it’s a little easier for you.
Madeleine
It’s not easy. I don’t think anybody, no matter how much experience you have as an editor, it’s always going to be hard to be objective, like, truly objective, about your work. Usually, I veer on the side of really harsh, for me, when I’m looking at my own writing. With other people, I veer kind of, a little to the other side, but when it’s for me, I see, oh, this is terrible. Why did you do this? What are you doing with your life? So, yeah, I think you’re wise to do that kind of scene-by-scene thing, because there is a big switch that happens between writer brain and editor brain, isn’t there? And it’s not one that we can easily go between. So what I try to do is, really write through quite a bit until, like I said, I’m either lost or I need to kind of go back and check, is this character journey what I think it is? And then I’ll go back with my editor brain on and read through and be pretty critical. But I mean, yeah, nobody’s ever objective about their work, really. That includes editors.
Kat
You still need other people to read it. But what have you learned as an editor to be able to then go see? Because you said the character journey. What is it that you look out for when you’re looking for that?
Madeleine
For a character journey, specifically, my main thing, with characters in general, is that every character must have a ‘must’. So what must they do? Something that drives them, that is a compulsion, this is their journey. This is what they’re doing. And that ‘must’ can change or shift a little bit throughout the book. But generally characters have something that drives them. We all do, right? And the other factor with characters, I don’t know, there’s a lot to it because there’s just so much psychology there, is creating these really well-rounded characters, that feel like people. People are complicated and messy, and we’re even inconsistent sometimes in our behavior. And that’s hard to write, because we want to write characters that kind of are more straightforward, on the page sometimes, because I think we feel that’s easier for people to take in and relate to. But really, characters can be pretty complicated. So really letting yourself go to that depth of thought for your characters, of you had said when you’re in a scene, okay, what’s happening in the scene? What’s happened with this character? They’ve probably made a new discovery in that scene or changed their mind about something, or they’ve faced a new obstacle. So what has happened in that scene? I think that’s a great exercise. And by the end, every character should have changed, somehow. That can be minor change, it can be major change. But we are all learning and growing as our own characters in life. And I think characters do the same thing. They will change. And if they haven’t changed, then they probably haven’t had a great adventure to begin with.
Kat
You might not be able to do a spin-off on them because nobody will care.
Madeleine
True enough.
Kat
I think psychology probably came into effect in your books quite a bit because of the post-apocalyptic. People are in survival mode, right? And people act differently in survival mode. So did you do any sort of research or do you have any history in that of like, what would people react? Because you can’t just take all basis off of my neighbor because you might live through an apocalypse, I don’t think.
Madeleine
I don’t know what it counts for so much. I do have a degree in psychology, and I have a degree in creative writing, too. And they kind of work nicely together, don’t they? But psychology, as far as the psychology of the human mind or behavior in an apocalypse, you really do revert to more basic needs, right? We have this hierarchy of needs, as psychologists like to refer to it, where you’ve got all this basic stuff at the bottom of the pyramid, like food, water, shelter, and safety. And before you can climb up to the top of the pyramid, where you have something grand, like self-actualization or purpose or whatever you want to call it, you have to meet these bottom needs. And so in this post-apocalyptic environment, or any challenging, harsh world that you’re creating as a writer, those needs kind of have to be addressed first. And if it’s really challenging yeah, that’s going to be what, at least part of your story is about. And that’s certainly the case with this series.
Kat
Yeah, it’s definitely something to think of, because there are some movies that books that you can forgive. Like I just watched Reminiscence. I was on the plane, and it’s entertaining. What is it again? I can’t remember. It’s Hugh Jackman, of course. It’s nice to watch, but there are definitely like, if I was going to edit or coach that book, I’d be like, I need to know how they’re surviving. There’s probably cholera all over this water. Why is she in a satin dress? So there is definitely that balance. As you said, we are writing fiction, but if you’re going to write 120,000-word novel. Most likely some readers are going to be like, why are they singing in the jazz club where’s all the mold?
Madeleine
That’s great. Indeed. Yeah. Believability is important. And if you look at the very basic environment that we even have in this world today, in countries that aren’t first world, their lives day to day. We had been talking earlier, before the podcast, their lives look very different than ours. And maybe as writers, we can sometimes slip into that trap of describing more fantasy or more of what we’re used to seeing during our day-to-day, instead of what would these characters actually be going through.
Kat
Right. Which is a good reason to then look for beta readers or readers who will sort of look through that. I guess now we have alpha readers. Everything’s always changing now with social media. Sometimes I feel really out of it. Do you use beta readers, or what is your process to making sure that your storyline is believable, but entertaining and is consistently red-headed or brown-headed or whatever?
Madeleine
Right. Beta readers, I think, are fantastic to bring in pretty early on in the process. Ideally, right after you finish that first draft, Blood for Blood, the second book in the series, didn’t have the luxury of doing that, just because I had so many other things going on and I was just kind of powering through. When I had the time to get it done, I got it done. And now at this point and before, I had my editor, who is not me, my editor read really closely and he’s passionate about the story, which I think is super important in an editor. They’re not just a machine to pump your story through to check the typos. Right? They’re your advocate and they really do enjoy what they’re reading. I think one of the best compliments an editor can give is I had to slow down reading to make myself edit. Like, I just wanted to keep reading. And I think that’s the kind of editor we should all try to get. So he’s a big, I wouldn’t want to say barrier, but a big stopping point for me to check that sanity, for sure. Even if he’s just doing a line edit, he’ll still say some things like, well, this really worked, this reveal of the villain worked for me, or just needs a little tweaking. So that’s been a big help.
Kat
Can I interrupt you there for just a second? Whether that’s an editor or whether that’s, I guess, more of a trusted beta reader. Somebody who can be pretty honest with you on how your story is working. How much do you take. Especially as a new writer. And I know you have experience that maybe new writers don’t. But sifting through the opinion of what sort of they want to have happen in the story versus really the storytelling opinion of it. You know what I mean? Like what actually works for storytelling, in order to sell your book, versus what they, as a reader, want to have happen. Do you have any advice for how writers can navigate that?
Madeleine
I think it’s great when you do have the time, and I hope that people do make the time, to have a larger group of beta readers. So have a dozen beta readers, if you can, and you’ll see the comments that are the most common among them. So that’s generally the ones that I pay more attention to, will be, okay, eight out of ten people said they didn’t understand what was happening here. That’s a pretty good clue. Back when I used to do workshops in college and you would bring your short story or whatever it was, to the group, and there would be 25 other people who read it, and they tear it up and down. And what do you take from that? Who do I listen to? Are they all right? And I’m a terrible writer. I think that the things that everybody says unanimously are important to take note of, and then anything that someone says that challenges you in one way or another, maybe they say they don’t like your main character. Okay, so then you take that piece of advice and go back and read it again. And if you really love your main character, you toss that bit of advice out, whatever advice that is. I don’t think that’s advice, but that opinion out and maybe it’s more confirming. Right? It affirms, you know what? No, I have thought about it, and I do like what this character is doing. So I think either way, it can be constructive for you, whether you get really good feedback that is beneficial or some pretty crummy things that people say. I think you’ve got to run it through your personal storyteller filter and see what is worth keeping here and what’s throwing away. And I think that does take practice and it’s not an easy process to go through with it.
Kat
No, it’s really not. And I think it’s great if you can find an editor like you have found who you trust, who you can sort of maybe even bounce back and forth on what they liked or what they didn’t like or why. And that’s quite a journey in itself just to find an editor like that.
Madeleine
It is.
Kat
I’m glad that you found one, because I have worked with quite a few people, and I myself have found one, where you get to the end of their comments and you’re like, oh, you don’t like my book.
Madeleine
That’s awkward.
Kat
Yeah. I really think that this has become personal. So you would recommend, if life allows, to get beta readers. And I think we’ve talked about this before where we get that urgency. And I think every time I have you come in to talk with my group or something or on the podcast, you always say, like, I know we all want to get our book out there, but that urgency could really diminish your sales just because you’re doing it too early. So if you can get good feedback on your book, that will maybe, possibly help you not get that bad review or several bad reviews. Right?
Madeleine
Right. And it’s another thing. We had talked about frequency. If people are trying to put out a book, they feel this time pressure to put out a book every three months, or even every six months. That is not a lot of time, especially as a newer writer, to write a novel, that’s really well written, and get it edited and revise it and publicize it, and all the things it’s just not, I don’t know. It’s unfathomable for me how quickly some people publish. But definitely take your time, especially if you’re newer to publishing, or newer to the writing world. Take your time to do it well. So I think if you’ve been writing a book for a couple of years, and you’ve had it through professional hands and you’ve revised, revised, revised, you might not need a giant slew of beta readers. But if you are really motivated to do that condensed publishing schedule, do your best to set aside at least a couple of weeks for people to read it and give you that feedback. That would be my advice. It’s not how I necessarily operate because I don’t work that fast. But if you do work that fast, try to build some of that kind of sanity checking into your process, if you can.
Kat
Yes. I mean, I’m still trying to figure out this puzzle of rapid releasing, because, you’re still beholding to other people. Like, very few people can write a book, edit their own book, and publish their own book, and it be a very good book.
Madeleine
Yes. That’s the key at the end there.
Kat
And you continue to have those fans. I know some people do it and they do have their fans, but anyway, maybe not
Madeleine
We’re not opinionated about this at all.
Kat
I’m just so confused about it. Wow. Maybe they have an editor that’s just waiting for them, I guess. I don’t know. So the editing process of a book. We talked about this in my group, because yesterday someone goes, does anybody hate editing as much as I do? And everyone raised their hand except for one person, who says that she loves editing. For a book, especially because you have a series, you’re probably coming out with one, maybe two more. I mean, these are longer books, too. So you’re really looking at like, how many? At least half a million words by the end of this series.
Madeleine
That’s crazy.
Kat
How is the editing and revision for you is your first draft or whatever? We consider it’s funny that we call it a first draft. Because, I don’t know how many times we go back before we’re like, oh, the draft is done. What is that editing process for you? Is there a lot of work to do? Is there a lot of revision? Or do you try to get through your first draft, like, overlapping, kind of going back as you go?
Madeleine
I think there’s definitely overlap there for me. Or I’ll reach a point in the story where I’m like, well, I kind of want to change this up, so let’s go back ten scenes ago and make that line up better now. I’ll definitely do that. I am not the type. And really, I don’t know many novel writers who are, who can just go through an entire draft without revising it all, without touching it, again. Just don’t look back. I can’t really do that. I think it’s a challenge. I would like to, because I think you can get more words to play with. You can’t really move the puzzle pieces around if you don’t have the pieces on the board, right? But for me, it’s an iterative thing. It’ll all go back and revise, or I’ll reread the scene, or if I’m not feeling, like, very creative in writing, that’s when I’ll turn to my editor brain, and I’ll be like, well, I can at least go revise this first scene and feel good about that day, that I didn’t waste that day. So mine is definitely a mix. I don’t do really orderly fashion, and at one point, I think for me, I reach a point with the manuscript where it’s all done, the end is written at the bottom, and I don’t know what else to do with it. Maybe I think, you know what? There could be something wrong here, but I’m stuck. I’m brain dead about it, and I’m not objective. So that’s, for me, the time when that goes to my editor, please help me. Help me see what I don’t see. And then that usually kicks off a little bit more, renewed creativity, that can be helpful. But I don’t know about you, but when you reach toward the end of that publishing or the writing journey to where you’re publishing that book, is it kind of like you just want it out?
Kat
Yeah.
Madeleine
You just want it gone.
Kat
Yes.
Madeleine
I joked with my friend who said, remember when you were getting married? And when I was getting married, and we weren’t really into the wedding stuff, the wedding planning, the wedding. We just wanted to be married to this person that we loved. I just want to be married. And I’m at that point with the book, like, I don’t care. I just want to be married.
Kat
Yes, I know. It’s interesting how long it takes to get there. That’s what I think can be really frustrating to writers. I do like your plan of, like, you have the draft as much as you can see it, but you don’t have that mentality of like, oh, and in three weeks, I’m publishing this book. It’s more like, help me see if there’s anything. Because I do think that a lot of our issue, as indie writers, is mindset. It’s like, just because you hit the end, because, way back when I finished my first one in 2017. I did have that, like, I want this out now. I’m done with it. But if we could switch that a little bit and like, okay, how about I take a break and you help me figure out what’s wrong with this storytelling. And thank goodness I did that because, I say this all the time. They told me to cut 40,000 words because it was a 120,000-word historical romance.
Madeleine
Epic romance.
Kat
She’s like, no, this is not going to work, anyway. So I do like that advice, too. It’s just like cutting that mindset a little bit. You’re not done yet, right? You’ll probably have to go revise it. And like you said, it will reinvigorate your creativity, which we want, right? Because once you publish your book, you do want it to be the best that you could have done in the moment that you’re living.
Madeleine
That’s a good note. I think it needs to be the very best of your capabilities at that time. The challenging thing, we call it the Writer’s Curse, is you’ll finish a project and it’s done and out there, and you learned so much by doing that project that now you see all the flaws and what you once thought was pretty good. Right?
Kat
Right.
Madeleine
So it’s a constant state of learning. And I think that can also trap people into this mindset that, I can never publish because it’s never going to be good enough. It’s never going to be done. And there is a story of this guy who wrote a very famous short story. I’m struggling. The Things They Carried, by this time, this short story is really well known, decades old, famous and beloved. And he’s going up, this old man, to read the story from the podium, and he has a paper printout of it, and he’s editing it as he’s going up. And we’re all going to do that. We want to do that. At some point, you just have to decide, I’m done. This is good, this is great. For my abilities right now, I’m happy and content with this. Am I going to learn more from this and probably want to tweak things when I’m 70 and going up to the podium? Probably. But I’m still going to have the courage to press publish today. And that can be challenging. So not too soon. But also you got to do it eventually, right?
Kat
Right. That is true. It is that balancing act there. So as you get ready for Blood for Blood to come out, you’ve gone through the editing, it’s all done. You’re not going to touch it anymore, right?
Madeleine
No, I’m in the final read through, checking, like, doing my own proofread before it goes to somebody else to proof.
Kat
I thought about doing my own audiobook, and I kept doing that too, where I kept editing and reediting and reediting. I was like, I better not read this anymore. Because there is such a thing as too much editing. Right? So you are doing the tweaking, which isn’t that bad. Like all the big work has happened. Right? You’re happy with the story, with the characters, with the development. Do you have a cover yet?
Madeleine
I have a draft cover, so we’re still working on the type setting and kind of some fades and stuff. But yeah, we have the cover art and layout and all that stuff.
Kat
Awesome. So it comes out, you’re shooting for October. Is it going to be wide or how do you publish?
Madeleine
Well, with First Carrier, I did have an audiobook. I won’t with Blood for Blood, but with first carrier, I had three different formats. I had audiobook, ebook, and then the paperback. The paperback was wide. And the ebook I did with Amazon through KDP, where it’s just with Amazon, and then the audiobook was through Findaway Voices, and you can get that wide. They distribute wherever you want. So a mix, because I’m of the mindset, both in publishing and in life, investments, whatever you want to call it, of not all of my eggs in one basket. I think that some people have a lot of great success with putting all their eggs in one basket. We all know what I’m talking about, Amazon. But that’s just not quite my style. I think they’re really great and they’re really easy to work with from a publishing perspective. But I also like to go wide and I like people to be able to find it in other areas, especially a paperback that you can get through a local bookstore or whatnot is always really cool.
Kat
Right. And I think science fiction, a lot of people still like to have those books.
Madeleine
I’ve discovered, at least with my current audience, when I did a lot of polling and I looked at the sales from the first book, that they like paper for sure. Yeah, that’s how I’m wired, too. So I can relate a lot, but yeah, interesting to learn.
Kat
Yeah. What made you make the decision to not do audio this time?
Madeleine
I think this time, for me, it was going to be too much, to get this book out on time. And I want to get it out for my readers as well, the ones that have been waiting for two years. I know that as a reader, that’s a lot to ask. I don’t want to make them wait longer for something that just not as popular for my readers yet, of a format, it was very small compared, to kind of audiobook and then ebook, and then paperback was the most popular. So I’m really leaning into the paperback thing and have some cool stuff coming for them, that I think they’ll like. But yeah, that’s the main reason why I’ve also looked into narrating your own. I don’t have the time. As we’ve talked about, time is hard and it’s also really challenging. You have to be an actor.
Kat
Voices. You have to make voices and you have to remember what voice you made. I don’t know how many times I’m reading to my kids and they’re like you just changed the voice. I was like, wow.
Madeleine
Well, that’s your opinion.
Kat
But I like how you made that business decision because as indie authors, it’s half business, right? We have to look at those numbers, we have to poll people, we have to find who our readers are, where they are, and what format they want. And I think it’s a wise decision to have made that time investment to figure that out. And because it’s also going to be a money investment to make an audiobook, and if it’s not going to give you a return yet, and then you can use that money for other fun paperbacks.
Madeleine
Yeah, that’s kind of the goal this time is to invest. Since I see them really loving that side of things. Well, cool, let’s play with that side of things more and meet their needs. Not just what I want to do necessarily, but what do they want from me, and how can I bless them? It should be top priority, I think, as a writer and as, like you say, a marketer, a lot of it is business.
Kat
Yeah, we shouldn’t do things just because that’s what the big publishers do, right? They come up with all the formats. So on the business end, I was part of your launch team in 2020, which was fun, and you put in a lot of work into that. And what have you changed or what have you decided to keep for the launch team? For Blood for Blood?
Madeleine
Well, I’m changing the format up a little bit as far as the main place that we would interface with each other. I used Facebook, and I don’t love social media in general, and I don’t really like Facebook very much. And I know a lot of people are starting to move away from it. So I’m looking into alternative ways for us to interact and not just be email or something like that. So I’m looking into Discord, which is a really cool group based kind of social media thing that a lot of gamers use and other people use it too, to try that out and see how it goes. But my goal is definitely to keep it a pretty tight, small launch team because I think it can be sometimes more effective than 50 people who aren’t really engaged. I think it’s better to have a more engaged, tighter knit group. It’s all learning. That’s why I’m changing things up this time, because it’s only my second time doing this. So it’s a process, yeah, for sure.
Kat
But you found it beneficial enough to do it again, to have a look.
Madeleine
I think so. I think so. And I don’t have much to compare it by, because I didn’t release a book without one before. But I think the launch is such an important period of time, especially that first month or so of your book, and there’s a bunch of different ways to strategize. You can go for a bunch of sales right away to try to hit best seller numbers on Amazon, or you can do pre-order strategy and get orders over time. And yeah, there’s a bunch of different ways to go about it. So I’m trying to test things out and see what works for me and what’s effective, to just get the word out there about the book. And I think launch teams are a great way to do that, at least part of the picture, for sure.
Kat
Right. So for your book, because it’s a series, do they have to have read the First Carrier, to understand Blood for Blood?
Madeleine
I mean, yes, but my solution to that is if you haven’t read First Carrier, but you’re really interested in the series and getting in on it and doing this launch team. I’m going to provide a synopsis for First Carrier for them. So it’s just a couple of pages of this is what happened in the story and this is who the characters are. So they might not get as much depth, of course, from a sequel as they would have otherwise, but at least they know what’s going on, who people are that’s always important.
Kat
Because really you want your launch team to have read the book, correct?
Madeleine
Ideally, ideally.
Kat
Because they’re going to then be pushing the book and telling people about it, because they are a fan of the book, they will have liked the book. Right? And then you provide them, with are you going to do social media or like swipe copy, or how do you do it, or how are you going to do it this time?
Madeleine
For like, the book distribution?
Kat
Yeah, for them to talk about it, I guess.
Madeleine
I think there’s a bunch of different ways. One thing that I like to do last time was really ask launch team members, what are you passionate about and what’s your gift, what are your unique circumstances? So if somebody is a member of a book club, maybe that’s kind of their task, right? To see if their book club will read the book and talk to others about it. If somebody is on a podcast, as a podcast, maybe they can spread the word about it that way. And some people have really grand social media followings. I don’t, it’s not my jam. And they can leverage that for that purpose. So I think it’s kind of an individualized thing, but definitely the goal is word of mouth. For me, at the end of the day, I think that the best way to find new books, and the way that I find new books is by asking my reader friends, what are you reading right now? What’s the best thing you read in the last month, in the last six months? And that’s how I often pick my next book. So that’s the most important thing to me. And it’s definitely a grassroots approach because it is slower and it’s a little slower than paying for a lot of advertisements or throwing money at a problem, I guess.
Madeleine
But I think that it has higher dividends in the end, or it can. And that way you do get people who are legitimately passionate. They’re not just, I don’t know, strangers who kind of share it on social media for the heck of it.
Kat
Yes, and as a new writer, somebody who is constrained by a budget, as most of us are, it can help you find those beta readers, too. Right? The people who become sort of your super fans and for your third or fourth or whatever comes down the line, maybe they’re willing to read it even ahead of launch.
Madeleine
Definitely. And I think your mailing list, if you have an email list going, that’s crucial. And that’s a really great place to start for things like beta readers, because beta readers shouldn’t be your mom or your sibling or your best friend, necessarily, although those opinions can be great, and especially if they are for the purpose of lifting you up and encouraging you. We need that sometimes, but also to get the more objective criticism. I think it’s important to go to people who are passionate about your work, because they’re on your mailing list, but will also be more upfront with you about issues that they had or questions that they had in the manuscript.
Kat
Yeah, absolutely. So how can people find you and get on your mailing list and possibly be part of your launch team or part of whatever is coming, all the surprises that are coming with the paperback and all that.
Madeleine
Yeah, the best place is to go to my website, madeleinemozley.com, and you can sign up for my mailing list there. There’s a link at the top of the very home page. There are links on the side. And by doing that, you’ll also get a collection of free short stories. The events in those short stories take place before the events of First Carrier, which is the first book in the series. So it’s kind of fun, and you get those free short stories, and then you’ll also be hooked up to where you get my, I send out about one email a month, not a whole lot during this launch period. There will be a few more lots of exciting things coming, though. I mean, other things that they can be involved in. Giveaways, all that fun stuff that comes with the book launch. So it’s a great time to really get engaged and you’ll also get emails about the launch team if that’s something you want to sign up for, to apply for.
Kat
Yeah, absolutely. So we will have the links in the show notes and I am excited to see this book come out. Thank you so much for coming and telling us about it.
Madeleine
Thank you for having me on again. It’s always so much fun talking.