Lewis Jorstad is an author and editor, a lover of reading and travel, and the steward of a very creaky sailboat. He hopes to visit every country in the world before he dies, but for now he spends his time teaching up-and-coming writers the skills they need to write their dream novels. You can find his website here thenovelsmithy.com.
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Kat
Hello everyone! Welcome back to Pencils and Lipstick. Today, I have an interview, with Lewis Jorstad. Did I get that? I say this every time because everybody’s last name, I always try to get it right. But thank you for coming on the show. Lewis, how are you doing today?
Lewis
I’m doing well. I appreciate you having me.
Kat
Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on, because there is so much to talk about, with all of the things that you have for writers. But before we get into that, would you just give us, like, a little intro of who Lewis is? Yeah.
Lewis
So I’m Lewis Jorstad. You did great with my last name. It’s a complicated one, but I am a developmental editor and book coach, writer. I do all the things. And my focus is really on helping up and coming writers, sort of hone their writing skills, so that they can write their dream novel. Hopefully without all the stress and overwhelm that normally comes with that process.
Kat
Yes. Because these days, we can publish a book pretty easily, right? But that doesn’t mean that the writing process is any easier than it was 100 years ago. So how did you get into this? Did you study writing in college? How did you stumble into being a book coach and developmental editor?
Lewis
I wanted to do this for a very long time, but as I imagine a lot of people deal with, I kind of went to college and was like, well, I’m going to spend all this money on a degree. It should be something I can make a living at. And at the time, I didn’t feel like writing was a viable career for me. So I did the bad choice, and I got a degree in history and political science. And proceeded to graduate college and realized I couldn’t get a job. So I had somehow managed to dig myself into that hole. And so I kind of had this moment where I was like, okay, I had opportunities that I could pursue, there were different office sort of jobs that I could take I wasn’t particularly excited about. And so I said, all right, well, I’m in a position where I can take six months, to try to do the whole book coaching thing, that I’ve been doing for friends and acquaintances, I had been working on for a long time. I had just never really pursued it as something I could seriously spend a lot of time on. So I’ll take six months, and if I can sort of make something out of it, maybe I can actually do that. And so, ironically, the thing that I ended up not studying in college, because I didn’t think I could make a career out of, it ended up replacing the thing I studied in college because I could make a career out of it. But I’m happy it went that way. It’s definitely a better fit for me.
Kat
I wonder if we should tell writers to take, like, an entrepreneurial course.
Lewis
Oh, my gosh, yes. Absolutely.
Kat
Because we all end up getting a degree that none of us use. I actually interviewed an author from Norway, not Finland. Oops! She’s going to get mad. She’s from Finland, and she was like, yeah, I got a degree in nursing because everyone told me I couldn’t make money from writing, and I’m a terrible nurse. So back to writing. Like, oh, if only we had a coach that would tell us, just stick to the writing, right? So you had already been helping people. How did you become that person that people would come to and ask about their writing, about writing a novel?
Lewis
Even though I wasn’t really pursuing a degree in it, I did take a lot of sort of classes and elective stuff in writing and storytelling. I took a couple of acting courses, which I found, I’m very bad on stage, but I enjoyed coaching other people as they sort of worked on it. And through that, I kind of found myself stepping into mostly that kind of coaching or teaching role, and I really enjoyed it. And people sort of came to me for that. And it wasn’t really on purpose, at that stage. It was really just kind of working with friends and classmates and acquaintances, and then they would tell other people, oh, hey, he really helped me with this. You might want to talk to him about whatever you’re dealing with. And it sort of, slowly, just kind of grew from there until I felt like, oh, maybe this is actually something that I could sort of do in a more focused, purposeful way, versus just meeting with people for lunch and kind of helping them out, which is what I had been doing up until then.
Kat
Yeah, it gets casual until you realize you might need a contract.
Lewis
Yeah, sending people contracts was a big moment for me.
Kat
Yeah, it’s a big thing because you do sort of like this is the world where you do sort of help each other out, but then you got to go into the full business mode, right? So you talk about in your bio, how you really honed in on studying story. So, like, what is it about story? Like, a lot of us think that we can write, and a lot of us, if you’re a writer, you have an affinity for writing, you’ll enjoy it. But there is something sometimes about story that really gets us stuck. Like, we have maybe a character or a plot, and then we all get stuck in the middle. And how many people have like, a half manuscript shoved somewhere?
Lewis
Shoved somewhere in a corner? Yeah. So that goes back even further. And I feel like a lot of writers can say this, I’ve been writing since I was a child, those early stories were sort of rough around the edges, to say the least. But, when I first started to try to write a novel, like a full-length novel of my own, I did it with Nano, and I got about halfway through Nano and just sort of hit this brick wall, where it kind of forced me to stop and look at what I had written and be like, oh, this is absolutely terrible. And it was this really stressful moment because I was like, I really love stories. I was and am a voracious reader, and I wanted to do this so badly. And then that feeling of like, I’m not capable of doing this was extremely crippling. I still haven’t revisited that manuscript, although I hope to one day. I put that away for a while at that point and just sort of stood over it, and then went to college and sort of started to come into my own a little bit and stop and look at it again. And I had sort of changed my mindset at that point. It was less of all, well, I couldn’t do it this time, therefore I cannot do it ever. And it became, well, just like, I can learn about Asian history during the Cold War, which is what I was studying for my degree. I can also learn how to write a novel. It’s the same principle. Talent, something that I really struggled with early on, was the idea that you have to be talented to do these things, and if you aren’t innately talented, you can’t do it, which is absolute nonsense. I’ve come to learn, talent is something you teach yourself. And so I ended up just dug in my heels and all of my sort of academic brain. I’m a very, like, organizationally-minded, like, process-minded person. So I sat down and I read every book I could get my hands on, met with every person who would give me the time of day, and just sort of absorb everything that I could. And in the process, I initially got very overwhelmed because there’s a lot out there, like you said, like character development, plot. That’s just sort of the service level. Then you get into pacing and world building and genre expectations and pros. It’s just a massive undertaking, and I was incredibly overwhelmed by that. But I think, fortunately, I’m an incredibly stubborn person, which was good in this instance, but I’m also very process-oriented. And so I said, okay, well, this is all a lot to deal with, so how can I turn this into something useful for myself? And I was able to kind of develop a, well, okay, I’m going to focus on this first, and then I can kind of deal with this and sort of going down the chain until I was able to develop a really solid understanding of the stories that I was working on. And then that’s when I started to sort of be able to help other people with that. Cutting through that overwhelm was a very big turning point, for sort of me as a writer, for sure.
Kat
I think that overwhelm is a real thing when you stop and you realize you have a problem in your story. Like, that happened to me this year, and I took sort of time last year, to revisit storytelling and just sort of like, I read The Science of Storytelling. I was fascinated by, it is true, there is a certain thing about a good story and trying to grasp that. And the overwhelm got real for a while. So I was like, am I even doing this? I don’t even know. Because if you don’t have a process, I started questioning if I even know what I’m doing, at that point, I sort of spiral down. So what is it, do you think? Or what have you seen, maybe, being the top things that really get people stuck on that storytelling? If they start with a character, start with a scene or a plot, and then they just can’t really get forward?
Lewis
That’s a good question, because I think it somewhat depends on the writer. I’ve worked with some writers who, I find they’re so emotionally attached to what they think their story will be, that they don’t see what it is. Like, they’re not seeing what they’re writing. They’re seeing what they want to write. And so they know it’s not working, but they can’t see past it, to see why. And so when I kind of come in, it’s initially this big battle of, like, X, Y and Z isn’t working. And here’s sort of what I recommend. And they’re like, no, it is working because this is how I’m seeing it. And I’m like, what? You’re not seeing what’s on the page?
Kat
That’s interesting. That’s a big deal.
Lewis
Yeah, we get so emotionally attached to our stories, and I’m not trying to, like, shame those writers in any way. I don’t think that’s an unusual problem to have, and it’s a really emotionally difficult one. But I do think it’s very true that writers are so close to the page that they can’t see the forest through the trees. They’re so in it that it can be hard. I find that people will get overwhelmed with really minute, craft things, which are important. But kind of like what I said about process, there’s a time and place. So I’ll be working with writers who are still halfway through their first draft, and they’re obsessing over, like, sentence structure and settings and POV, to an extent. And all of those things are important, but at the same time, they also are really struggling with, like, story structure and character development, like, really foundational stuff. And so they’re kind of trying to change everything at once and therefore not effectively changing or improving anywhere.
Kat
Yeah, that’s like the hamster wheel right here, you keep going down to the sentence structure. I wonder if that’s because we’re avoiding the climax. Like, getting to the climax and the denouement, or the afterwards, and to the end, like, maybe we’re afraid. Because I think you’re right, we know in our gut something’s not working. And if you don’t know if you can’t put your finger on what it is, might as well just make sure that your sentences are really good.
Lewis
Yeah, might as well make sure it sounds really good, even though the story is not working. And yeah, I think it’s an emotional thing at its core. That’s really hard to address. There’s a lot of ego and identity wrapped up in that, and recognizing it’s not working can be really difficult.
Kat
So then what do you do with them? How you just sort of hold their hand while they take a deep breath? I mean, do you usually have to go back and rewrite everything do you find? A lot of people find that really difficult to say, okay, I wrote all these words, and maybe now that you have the story better in your head, it might be time to toss that and start over, which is something I did this year. And every time I say that, all the writers are like, yeah, which I get, but it’s like my fifth novel, and so I knew that if I would just do it, it would come better. What have you found when working with people when we’re so emotionally attached? And I think it’s interesting that you said they think they’re writing the story that’s not getting onto the page. That’s a big point, too. So how do you get them to do that?
Lewis
Yeah, kind of what you said about rewrites, is a big part of it, and that is always a difficult conversation to have. I try to be a very sort of accommodating and, like, gentle with my critiques because, like, you know, again, like I said, writing a novel, it’s very emotional. Like, I’m not here to hurt anybody or make that more difficult for them. It’s already stressful enough. But I am sort of like a tough love, to some extent person, where I’ll set my stake in the sand, and no matter how many times they’re like, no, I don’t agree, I was like, no, I’ve set the wall. You either have to climb over it or you just keep knocking your head into it. So a lot of times, if people are still on their first draft, when they come to me, I’ll basically sort of draw a line in the sand. Like, everything before this point, we’re just not going to worry about right now. We’ll come back to it, but from here on out, we’re going to improve. And every time we talk, I’ll sort of push them and push them on one topic until it kind of clicks into their brain, because I think, because we’re so attached to it emotionally, you can hear that a specific topic is important. You can hear someone tell you that your character’s arc is really not coming through. We need them to be more active on the page, and you can understand what that person is saying, and you can even accept that you think they’re right. But for that to click in your brain and for you to say, oh, I understand. What I’m missing here is a totally different thing, and there’s something with repetition to that. Every time you just get a little bit farther, and then all of sudden, it’s like the floodgate is open. And you’re like, I understand now. And so getting people to that point with a lot of key issues, is a big part of first draft. But if I get someone, once we get to their second draft, it’s okay, you’ve made a lot of improvements. Now it’s time to scrap it and rewrite the entire thing. And that’s a difficult conversation, but it’s not so much scrapping it like, we’re going to throw away everything you’ve accomplished. It’s, I want you to pull up two documents with your original draft and a blank document, and I want you to rewrite it word for word. Because as you’re rewriting it, you’ll realize, oh, this doesn’t sound right, does it? I can fix that. And you can kind of go through, but you still get to keep all the stuff that really works. So it’s not as overwhelming as it sounds, but it does sound very overwhelming.
Kat
Well, that’s an interesting way to do it, though, because you’re not getting bogged down in the line by line thing, because I always tell people to sort of pull it up on a Kindle or something and read, chapter by chapter, because that way you’re not tempted to be like, oh, I shouldn’t have a was in there. Who cares? What we’re looking at right now is like, is this scene needed? Is anything happening there? So that’s an interesting point to rewrite, and there are writers out there that write the first draft by hand, and then they obviously have to go in and retype it, right?
Lewis
Yeah, that’s a good opportunity for that, for that rewrite. Something you said about scenes. Like, does the scene even need to be here? Something I also often do with writers who, like, have some bigger structural problems, is what I call a reverse outline. I think a lot of writers are familiar with the concept of outlining. Even total pantsers who are very anti-outline, at least know how it is. And a reverse outline is basically that process, but with an existing draft. So instead of kind of like what I said, where it’s hard to see what’s actually on the page, a reverse outline is where you go through your finished manuscript, your finished draft, and you outline it, as if you were outlining a new story, but you’re outlining it based on what you’re finding on the page. So these are my characters. This is actually what they do and how they change. And you might wwrite next to one of them, no change. Like, the change I thought I was creating is not here. You know, same with your scenes. You go through and catalog like, okay, these are sort of my bird’s eye view of my scenes, and this is what happens, and this is what role they serve in the story. And then you can, kind of, make better judgment calls about, oh, this scene that maybe I’m really emotionally attached to is not serving the story. So either I have to change the story to fit the scene, or I have to change the scene to fit the story. And so, yeah, it’s kind of an intensive process, but it tends to lead to a lot of really big breakthroughs, because you see your story so much more clearly, than when you’re writing it, through that process.
Kat
Yeah, of course. I mean, it is interesting, how when you’re writing, you can see the characters in your brain doing all these things, and of course, you don’t want to say every little detail that they’re doing, because that’s a no no. And so then sometimes you think you tell a reader what they’re doing and you’re not doing. They’re all confused. It’s a lot harder, I think, to write a novel than what we give credit for, really.
Lewis
Oh, yeah. I mean, you’re creating, like, the best novels, the ones that really light up readers and readers just remember, you’re creating an entire world. You’re creating people that feel real in a world that feels real, with events that feel real, but it’s all sleight of hand, because it’s not real. Even memoir, I would argue, isn’t real, because it is someone’s account of events. And there’s always different perspectives of every part. But for genre fiction especially, it’s not real. And so it’s all about sort of, like ,striking that balance of, like, cause, for instance, what I said just there, it’s about striking that balance of like, you don’t write that when you’re writing dialogue. You would just get to the point, but you’re trying to create the feeling of this real world that’s so complicated, that’s so difficult. It’s absolutely a big undertaking. Finding ways to make that easier is always worth it.
Kat
Yes. And just because we read a lot, it’s a funny thing to grasp, like, good storytelling, right? It has changed over the centuries. It changes per culture. And what somebody thinks is great storytelling might not be what another person thinks is great storytelling, but really, what every good story has is a good character, right? A character that changes in some way or grows or has that sort of character arc. So how do you help people when, I don’t know about you, I’ve seen a lot where the first draft, a writer isn’t really in tune with their character. Like, it feels very far away. And maybe that’s because they don’t know their character, do you think? Or how do you get them so that they can really bring that reader in so close, that they don’t want to put the book down because they can’t wait to see what this guy this guy or girl or whoever is going to do next?
Lewis
So most of what I do with writers is very, like, story oriented. So I don’t usually get into a lot of, like, line editing and sort of setup structure and pros. I think that there are a ton of techniques, like, on the pros level that can pull readers in closer. But I think on the story level, on a more core level, kind of like what you said, character arcs are a big part of that. And I think I’ve worked with a lot of writers who kind of balk at that idea. They’re like, I don’t want this, like, structured arc. And I’m like, what? You need this structured arc. Because, again, like I said, you’re trying to create the feeling of a real person, in shorthand, and real people change. This is something K.M. Weiland, who I’m sure a lot of writers are familiar with, talks about. She did, I think, a whole series on how character arts mimic real life and how you can learn about yourself through the characters that you write. And so I tend to talk to writers about their characters in terms of, like, you know, both sort of where do they start and where do they end, like, on the big picture, who are they at the beginning of your story, and who are the are they at the end, and how can you make that difference more stark? Like, how can you punch up that difference and make that more impactful and then sort of understanding why they experience that change? I talk about something I call the four crossroads, and it’s kind of both a plot structure and a character arc thing. But in terms of character arcs, your protagonist will, or should, reach four different crossroads throughout your story, where they have the opportunity to make a major decision. And the decision they make tells readers who they are at that point in the story. So at the beginning, they make a decision usually aligned with some kind of harmful belief they have about themselves and their world. Toward the middle of your story, they have started to recognize that maybe that belief is wrong, and so they make a different kind of decision, but they haven’t really worked through that yet. Their third decision is almost always a step backwards. And so they fail. They make the wrong choice again, because of that sort of harmful belief they have, and they’re punished for it. And then that provides them the opportunity to let go of that harmful belief once and for all. And if they accomplish that successfully, they have a final sort of key crossword that they make, where they make the right decision and they are able to overcome the conflict of their story and sort of cement their growth as a person. And sort of those four hops throughout their story as they make these different decisions, are signals to the reader saying, this is who this person is now, and this is how they’re changing. And that sense of change is incredibly cathartic and satisfying as a reader. And it’s also helpful as a writer because it gives you some signposts to kind of work towards. It’s not I need to create this arc where my character goes from here to here, you know, from A to B, but, like, what happens in the middle, I have no idea. Instead of, I need to get my character from A to Z and I know all the letters in between, I can kind of get them down that road.
Kat
But I think the hardest thing for writers when you say that, like, it makes sense, but then they go super psychological on you have you ever encountered that?
Lewis
I’m a pro at that myself.
Kat
Me too. They’re like, okay, so they’re going to realize that the deep, dark secret. You’re like, no. Like so trying to get them to believe. I’ll use this as an example. I read this book, in fact, I didn’t even finish it, because the main character, I’m pretty sure the arc was supposed to be like, it’s okay to find love again after her husband died. But she was so good and nice to everyone all the time. Even the crazy mom, who didn’t really deserve it from all the things and the best friend that kept, oh, she’s crazy, and she abandons us constantly, but we love her. Even by halfway through the middle, I couldn’t see any change in this person telling the story. But you’re the one whose husband died. Like, I’m hoping that you find love, you know, like, I don’t understand what’s happening here. So I think that can happen, right? A lot of times where we almost have our side characters, like, have things happen to the main character, but if the main character doesn’t have a real problem in the beginning? There’s no, like, change at the end. It doesn’t make any sense, right? So that you have that happening. But then when you tell the author they have to have a mindset shift. They’re like, their mindset okay. And they get really woo about it. So how do you handle us writers when we start going through our Psychology 101 books and trying to find the worldview that could damage our main character?
Lewis
Just kind of quietly high my psychology. So I mentioned the sort of the four crossroads, and part of why I said that they’re both a character thing and a plot thing is that, the way I teach them is that the crossroads need to be a crossroad both for your character, where they make a decision that puts them down a different path, but it’s also a crossroad where your character development and your plot intersect really clearly, because the decisions they make needs to be concrete, physical decisions with immediate consequences. I’m going to pick on Mulan just because it’s one of my favorite movies ever, and I use it as an example constantly. So it’s easy for me to kind of, like, pull just unprompted out of my brain.
Kat
Hey, it’s not Star Wars, which is useful.
Lewis
Which is the usual. Although, admittedly, I use Star Wars all the time, so I’m very good.
Kat
It’s a pretty good arc.
Lewis
I know it’s such a good arc. But to pick on Mulan, I like using that as an example. Disney movies tend to be really concrete. Like, they hit all the beats at exactly the right time, so they’re good teaching tools. And so for Mulan’s first crossroad, her harmful belief is that, my worth is defined by my value to my family. Her whole psyche is wrapped up in, like, this belief that I have to be valuable to my family. What I want is not as important as what they expect of me. And so she’s very cloistered in, and she’s clearly very unhappy. So something else that I like to talk to writers about is your character’s going to go on this arc? But why does that arc matter? Why do they need to undergo this arc? And so that maybe kind of gets to be like, her husband just died, but she seems fine. It’s like, okay, why does she need to undergo this arc? What is harming her current life that needs to be remedied? And so for Mulan, that is very much that, she’s being pushed into this sort of expectations in the society, that she’s incredibly unhappy and her intelligence is being completely ignored, and she feels incredibly suffocated. And so she reaches her first crossroad, where her decision is to disguise herself as a man, which in her society is value, in order to be valuable to her family. And so that decision very much ties into this belief she has, that her worth is defined by how valuable she is to her family. She’s going about it in a weird way, in a way that’s consistent with her personality, but that fundamentally is still that harmful belief. At the same time, though, it’s a plot moment. The core conflict of her story is sort of arisen. Her father is being drafted, who she loves very dearly and knows that he’ll be killed. And so this intersection of her beliefs about herself and her world and the conflict of the plot of her story intersect, where she disguises herself as a man to be valuable to her family, and in doing so, runs away from home to join the army and, like, triggers that part of her plot. So it can’t just be like the character has a realization in themselves where they’re like, oh, I should love myself, and everything is just over. They need to take action to show that to the reader. I am changing or I am making decisions, because I am doing this action right.
Kat
Because if you ask Mulan, in that moment, she probably would only use the excuse that she’s going to save her dad. She doesn’t know that really what she should do about herself.
Lewis
Yeah. At that stage in the story. She has no concept of the lesson that she’s going to end up learning. And that’s what makes it really impactful at the end in her final crossroad when she sort of presents herself as a woman and says, you will respect me or I will basically punish you. She goes up to the leader of the Huns who is intent on killing her, and he dismisses her, oh, you’re just some woman. And she’s like, no, I’m the person who destroyed your entire army, you will respect me. Even though that puts her in the direct line of fire. And that’s an incredibly impactful moment because you see how her decisions have changed and thus how she as a person has changed. But it’s all built on this foundation of plot, of the action that she’s taking and what that says about her internally as a character.
Kat
That’s interesting. So do you think that when we’re really, like a writer that’s really plot driven, do you think that’s where maybe people kind of go wrong, I guess, when they have certain beats in the plot that they really, really want to hit and they just haven’t quite gotten a character, like you said, has to have some sort of decision making something along that? And I guess some people would call that just like the characters just reacting maybe to the plot, like if they’re not really developing. And that’s kind of the clincher there that really making an impact on them.
Lewis
Yeah, I would say that’s true. I would actually argue that I’m more of a plot driven writer, like in my personal writing. So learning to sort of understand, I’ll usually sort of lay out the rough picture of where I want my plot to go before I even really have a concept of my protagonist. That’s just kind of what clicks in my brain. And so part of the sort of writing process that I’ve developed in the systems that I sort of set up for myself and then I usually teach, is sort of starting by just sort of creating your story summary. What is your mental image of your story? Whether that’s character focused or plot focused, it really doesn’t matter at that stage. And it’s super rough and it’s super messy. And this is kind of what I think this is going to be. And then you go in, and then you kind of have to get a little more analytical and say, okay, who is my protagonist in this story? Identifying who are some of my key characters? And then saying, okay, I know who my key characters are. What decisions are they going to make in this story? How will that link up to the sort of rough plot that I’m thinking of? And then how can I solidify that into crossroads, into key events in the story? So it is sort of a character first approach, but I think it’s relatively adaptable. Since I am sort of a plot focused writer, that initial summary you create can really go either way. And it kind of just gives you that baseline to work with as you then start to go and click all the puzzle pieces together and say, okay, well, how does this actually line up? But you really need both. And I say this about genre fiction specifically, because literary fiction is kind of its own animal. But for genre fiction specifically, you can’t have just a character or just a plot. You need both because the way they interact is what makes for a really good story.
Kat
Yeah, that’s what’s going to make people not put the book down. I have started to use Keep Breathing as an example of this, of like if you haven’t watched it, it’s like a miniseries on Netflix. I always tell people, my husband hated it, but he falls asleep because he falls asleep all the time watching television. But that’s one example that I love as a writer because the plot like getting lost in the woods can go in so many directions, right? And the character is completely unlikable in her story. Nobody would care about until you stick her in the woods and she almost, you know, like, OK, now we really kind of want her to survive because we kind of feel sympathetic. Putting those two together actually made a pretty compelling and worth watching story, you know, separate, it’s like I don’t even care. There are a million other things to watch on a million other subscription sites. So I think that’s really interesting that you put that together. When you say, how you’re coaching, you have a ton of resources that, do you use the resources that you have? On your website you have all these free resources, which I think is amazing.
Kat
You have a couple of books about plotting and like getting your book done in ten days, which is also amazing. So let’s talk about these things that you’ve put together specifically for writers to help them.
Lewis
So, yeah, I have a lot of free sort of articles and I have a free resource library with workbooks and templates and things on my website. And then I have the Ten Day series and I have another series of books that’s the Writers Craft series. The Ten Day series, yeah, it was very much part of me figuring out my writing process. That series is very much the writing process that I use now, where it’s all about sort of breaking up that overwhelm, by saying, I’m going to follow these steps in this very clear order and it’ll get me where I need to go. And at each stage of the writing process, so from outlining, I think I go all the way to publishing. And I try to make those books kind of adaptable. For instance, a lot of people see the Ten Day Draft which is about writing your first draft in ten days. And they go, no, I will not.
Kat
Hey, you got Nano.
Lewis
Yeah, we got Nano, which I get that’s not necessarily realistic for everybody simply due to time.
Kat
But would that be because they’ve done the Ten Day Outline? You know, is this like a stepping stone series, or do you do it altogether?
Lewis
Yeah, so each book sort of leads into the next, but I try to write them in such a way that people can jump in wherever they are in the process. For instance, I have a lot of writers I work with that read The Ten Day Edit, which is about sort of revising your novel in ten days. Although there are sort of breaks in that one because realistically, I have no idea how much editing someone’s going to need to do. So it’s about sort of developing your editing plan, and then you pause and edit and then come back, and there’s another set of days where you sort of go back in and refine that. But I’ve had a lot of writers read that and none of my other books and then come to me at work with me like, oh, yeah, so when I talk about this in The Ten Day Outline, they’re like, I have no idea what you’re talking about. I never read that. So they’re designed to sort of jump in wherever, but they can build off each other. Okay, but for The Ten Day Draft specifically yeah, if you have that baseline set, you have a really strong outline. And that’s something I talk about at the beginning of that book, like, hey, if you haven’t done this yet, you really should. Yeah, it’s about breaking that first draft into ten stages. You can do it in days, you can do it in weeks, you can do it in months, whatever sort of feels right for you. But that way it’s again, sort of about cutting away that overwhelm. You’re not just looking at the page and saying, well, I need to write something, and I have an outline, so I kind of know what I need to write. But what should I expect from you?
Kat
You’re going to go to a coffee shop again.
Lewis
Yeah, exactly. So it talks about mindset, like, what mental hurdles will you probably face at the stage in your draft? What are ways to deal with that? And where roughly should you kind of be in your story, based on sort of general pacing rules? Like, towards the middle of that book, I talk a lot about getting to the middle of your draft and staring at it like, I thought I had a really good plan for this, but it’s just all sort of falling apart because that’s when people’s drafts start to just collapse on them. And how can you handle that? Because that’s where at least a lot of my novels have died at that middle point, and a lot of the writers I work with, their novels kind.
Kat
You’re like, 30,000 words and not doing anything. It’s weird how that can happen. All right, so you have that, which I think is amazing. Do pantser sort of bulk at your Ten Day Outline or have you been able to convince people who claim that they are discovery writers to do the outline process?
Lewis
I actually recently ran a poll, like, what’s your writing alignment if you’re familiar with the DMD alignment charts, like, you know, Chaotic Neutral and Lawful Evil or whatever. And there’s one for writing that’s like true Plants or Chaotic Plotter. I’m a chaotic plotter. I write all my stuff on index cards and sort it on the wall because I’m in that case, I think most of my audience are plotters of some level on the spectrum. But I do definitely have a few panthers that are like, I adapted this to what I need. And then something I do talk about in the book is like, you can take this as far as you want, but I recommend as a baseline, you have X, Y, and Z, know who your protagonist is, know your crossroads, and even if you know nothing else in between, at least you kind of have those big points to work towards. So you don’t just sort of wander off down a road that leads you nowhere, which is easy to do.
Kat
Yes, I do like that. And I do like your reverse outline, that you call it. And that’s really like, okay, fine, go write as much as you want, but make sure that when you go back, it’s a straight road down the story and not like going around the world. So I’ve done books different ways, and I’m not the greatest plotter, but I’m trying.
Lewis
Well, check out the book. Not to sell my stuff, but…
Kat
Check it out. But I think it is true, though. You either have it in your head, like, I don’t know that anyone’s just a discovery writer where you’re like, I’m just going to sit down today and just write a book. That’s going to come out as who knows what. You have some sort of what if or plot or something in your head that makes you think that there’s a story there, that’s already the beginning of a plot. Like, sometimes I will take a walk and record, this is what I want to have happen in the book. This is what I see now. So that’s some sort of an outline. It’s not like not just starting there once upon a time. Then you have the Writer’s Craft series as well. So we will have the links in the show notes as well with your website and people can go find these. You have Write Your Hero and Mastering Character Arcs. There you go. We got everything we need.
Lewis
Yes. Although I guess I shouldn’t promise this now, but the third book in that series should be coming out sometime in the spring, although with my track record, I’ll get halfway through writing it and be like, I need more research. And I’ll go up into the cave for three months, and then I’ll pop back out like, remember I promised this in the spring? Well, it’s August 5 now, but here it is.
Kat
Hey, you’re doing the research for us, so that’s awesome. Because it is true, you can go out and there’s a lot of books out there. And I recommend a couple of different books to people. But the truth is, like you said, sometimes while you’re reading, you’re like, yes, I get it. And then you close the book, you’re like, wait a minute.
Lewis
What did I learn from this?
Kat
So I would assume, like, the Ten Day Outline is sort of like book and workbook. Like, is that kind of how all of them go? Like, there are exercises for people to go through, or do you just do that in your coaching? Or where do they find that sort of working it out?
Lewis
Yeah, so the Ten Day series is especially task oriented. Every chapter ends with a kind of a rundown of, by the end of today, you’ll want to have accomplished X, Y, and Z. You want to have decided on your premise and picked a working title or whatever it may be. The Writer’s Craft series is a little more flexible, because it’s just sort of about learning the craft. But I do try at the end of each chapter to have a sort of, like a key lesson section that’s based on everything you learned in this chapter, these are the key takeaways that I hope you got from this. And so it’s usually four or five bullet points that are sort of what the major topics of this were.
Kat
Would you recommend people sort of pick these up before they start writing or maybe in between, like, keep refreshing the Hero course or the Mastering Character Arcs? Have you ever thought of when you would recommend it?
Lewis
That’s a really good question. I think it depends on the writer. I think they’ll know when it’s time for them. I know, at least for me, when I first started writing, it was just sort of a I knew so little that I didn’t know what I didn’t know. And so it was just sort of me writing until I hit that first wall way back when and realized, oh, I actually really don’t know as much as I think. And that’s when I really dove in and started studying really aggressively. So I think for a lot of people, you know, they’ll hit that wall in your writing and say, oh, I’m missing something here. And for them, that could be their first draft. That could be during the editing process that could be after their first rejection from an agent or their first ad review where they say, oh, I’m definitely missing something, and it’s that, I need to hone my craft. I’m missing something, when I usually tell people, well, you know, if you’re struggling with character or write your heroes, really about protagonists, multiple protagonists, how that all shapes your novel, if you’re really struggling with your protagonist, that’s a good time to look at that.
Kat
Yeah. And I mean, just because we like telling stories, it’s still a talent that we have to hone. Like you said, no other art form claims that they can learn and do and be geniuses all by themselves. We got to change that mindset. We’ve got to learn and know what we don’t know and go find help with people. So that is awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Where can people find you? I’ll have links in the show notes, but tell us if people are listening, where they can find you, where they can contact you and find your books.
Lewis
So I mostly work on thenovelsmithy.com. So if you want to check out my articles, check out all my free resources, thenovelsmithy.com/library is where you can sign up, if you want to check out some of my free workbooks. There are other places on the website, but that’s the easiest place to find them. And if you want to sort of follow me and follow what I’m doing, getting on my newsletter is the place to be. I don’t email people constantly. I email about once a week with new articles or if I’ve got a new book coming up, I’ll let people know. But that’s definitely the place to stay in touch.
Kat
Wonderful. All right, we will send people there. So thank you so much, Lewis, for coming on and talking to us about character arc and storytelling, and we are all better for it.
Lewis
That is high praise. My ego is through the roof.